Source: An interview with professor John Vervaeke,, Essentia Foundation website.
Can We Be Rational And Spiritual.wav
This podcast presents an exploration of the contemporary meaning crisis through the lens of cognitive science and philosophy, featuring professor John Vervaeke. He argues that our current dominant metaphysics, physicalism, alienates humans by failing to account for our inherent role as meaning-makers. He proposes that a path forward involves a "thin description" of a "strong Transcendence," suggesting a way to re-engage with spirituality and practices like meditation without falling into either dogmatic religion or purely materialistic interpretations. The podcast also touches upon the myth of the zombie as a reflection of our culture's denial of transcendence and the necessity of a "homing worldview" to support meaningful practices.
The conversation centers around the meaning crisis, which is described as stemming from a dominant worldview of physicalism that fails to provide a sense of belonging and generates alienation. This crisis is reflected in contemporary myths like that of the zombie.
A distinction is made between genuine spiritual experiences and "Rabbit Hole metaphysics," which are characterized as idiosyncratic and self-centered beliefs often associated with certain experiences, such as those induced by psychedelics.
The discussion explores the historical evolution of worldviews, from ancient mythologies through the Axial Revolution and the rise of Christianity, to the fragmentation in the late Middle Ages and the eventual dominance of materialism. The importance of metaphysics as a foundational framework for meaning-making is highlighted.
A model of cognition is presented that distinguishes between intelligence (anticipation and relevance realization), rationality (dealing with self-deception), and wisdom (coordinating different kinds of knowing). Relevance realization is argued to be likely non-computational.
The nature of consciousness is explored, moving beyond the traditional focus on adjectival qualia (like redness) to consider adverbial qualia (like he-ness and now-ness). The relationship between consciousness and computational models of intelligence is also discussed, with the argument that current AI lacks genuine relevance realization and the capacity for care.
The conversation emphasizes the importance of ecologies of practices (like meditation and mindfulness) embedded within a supportive worldview to address the meaning crisis effectively. The limitations of simply adopting techniques without their underlying metaphysics are discussed, as is the potential for a "new advent of the sacred" characterized by a "thin description of strong Transcendence."
1. What is "Rabbit Hole Metaphysics" and why is it problematic, especially in the context of psychedelic experiences?
Rabbit Hole Metaphysics, as described by Professor John Vervaeke, refers to the idiosyncratic and often egocentric belief systems individuals construct, particularly after experiences like those induced by psychedelics. While psychedelics themselves are not addictive, people can become fixated on these self-created metaphysical frameworks, often fueled by information found online. This is problematic because it can be a form of self-deception that exacerbates the meaning crisis by trapping individuals within the very mindset that contributes to it. Instead of fostering genuine growth and understanding, it can lead to isolated and unfounded belief systems.