Source: “Paul On The Cross: Reconstructing The Apostle’s Story Of Redemption”, By David A. Brondos, Fortress Press, 2006.

A Socrates and Hypatia Dialogue

Dying With Christ.wav

Jeff’s Deep Dive Podcasts on Philosophy and Theology

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Thispodcast delves into the concept of "Dying with Christ" in Pauline theology, particularly challenging the prevalent notion of "participatory language" often attributed to Paul. The author critiques interpretations that suggest believers mystically or ontologically "participate" in Christ's death and resurrection, arguing that such ideas are theologically and historically problematic. Instead, the text proposes that Paul's "with Christ" language signifies an ethical identification and shared condition with Christ's commitment to God, leading to persecution and a "death to sin," rather than a literal or magical participation in historical events. Ultimately, the piece advocates for understanding Paul's soteriology within the broader, continuous early Christian and Jewish redemption story, emphasizing Christ as a unique historical individual whose death and resurrection ensure future salvation for believers, rather than enacting an abstract or cosmic transformation of all humanity.

Summary

Topic 1 Paul's Participatory Language: The Central Query and its Origin The sources introduce Paul's distinctive "participatory language," which includes phrases like "in Christ," "dying with Christ," "suffering with Christ," "being crucified with Christ," "being buried with Christ," "being raised with Christ," and "being glorified with Christ." This language implies a sharing or participation of believers in Christ's experiences and status. A primary question explored is whether this language, unlike Paul's "cultic-juristic" or "forensic" terms, originated from the early Christian story of redemption or developed independently from other sources, such as ancient Jewish or Hellenistic religious thought. The early tradition, as reconstructed from the Synoptics and Acts, does not explicitly state that believers collectively die with Christ or use "in Christ" language. Therefore, the origin and underlying narrative framework of Paul's participatory language are central to understanding his soteriology.

Topic 2 Historical Interpretations of Paul's Participatory Language Throughout the 20th century, Pauline scholars extensively studied Paul's "mystical" or "participatory" language.

• Adolf Deissmann was an early proponent, highlighting the importance of the "in Christ" formula, which he understood "vividly and mystically." He viewed Christ not as a mere historical personage but as a "reality and power of the present, an 'energy'," and interpreted Paul's language of suffering and dying with Christ as reflecting Paul's "passion mysticism," where Paul "mystically experiences all that that Body experienced."
• Albert Schweitzer further developed these ideas, arguing that through baptism, believers were "united in one corporeity" with Christ, undergoing his dying and rising. He claimed Paul conceived this union in ontological and realistic terms, even as a "physical bodily union."
• John A. T. Robinson similarly described Paul's doctrine of the Church as the resurrection body of Christ in "materialistic and crudity" terms.
• Karl Barth interpreted this ontologically, suggesting Christ took on "humanity" at the incarnation, and by dying and rising in that humanity, destroyed the "old man" and brought a "new man." He believed "the totality of all sinful men" died with Christ on the cross due to their shared humanity.
• Rudolf Bultmann, while rejecting mystical or ontological union, proposed that participation occurs when the proclaimed word compels a hearer's decision. For Bultmann, the "cosmic event" of the cross, lifted out of temporal limitation, becomes present through the word and sacraments. He considered "In Christ" primarily an ecclesiological formula, and notably, he argued that Paul's participatory language had roots in mystery religions and Gnosticism, leading to the idea that baptism united believers with Christ into one "soma," making Christ "not really an individual person." These interpretations often stressed Christ representing or incorporating others, leading to the idea that what is true of Christ is also true of them, often through some form of corporate reality, mystical relationship, shared humanity, the Holy Spirit, or the sacraments.

Topic 3 Theological Difficulties with the Notion of Participation The concept of "participation" in Christ or his death presents several theological challenges. In normal English, people do not "participate" in other people; fellowship or communion is a more accurate description. The idea of "participating in Christ" often leads to analogies with Platonic doctrines of participation (particulars sharing in universals), which themselves raise unresolved questions about how particulars can share in universals, and there's no clear evidence Paul drew on Plato. Interpretations like Deissmann's (Christ as "air" or "energy") reduce Christ to a mysterious material substance rather than a historical person. Schweitzer's idea of "same corporeity" turns Christ's body into an "inclusive amalgamation," potentially dissolving the individuality of both Christ and believers. Furthermore, the notion of participating in a particular, unrepeatable historical event like Christ's death is problematic. It requires the past event to be "universalized" or made omnipresent (as Bultmann argued) or for people to be "mysteriously included" (as Barth claimed), implying a loss of particularity for Christ and/or believers, and transforming Christ's death into an abstraction rather than a concrete historical occurrence. The idea of participating in Christ's "experiences" is similarly unclear, as historical individuals have unique experiences.

Topic 4 Historical Difficulties with the Notion of Participation: The Origin Problem A significant historical problem for proponents of a participatory soteriology in Paul is the origin of these ideas. Since they are absent from the early Jesus-tradition (Synoptics, Acts), it is implausible that Paul or his communities developed them "out of the blue." This necessitates positing a pre-Christian Hellenistic or Jewish background.

• Hellenistic sources (Gnosticism, Mystery Religions): For a long time, scholars posited that Paul drew from Gnosticism or the mystery religions. Bultmann, for instance, suggested that Gnostic motifs and mystery ideas were already present in the kerygma of the Hellenistic church before Paul. However, recent studies have cast serious doubt on this. There is no clear evidence for the existence of Gnostic myths concerning redemption and a "primal man" in Paul's day, with scholars calling the search for such myths a "wild-goose chase." Similarly, the view that Paul's soteriology was heavily influenced by mystery religions has been challenged. While parallels exist, the mysteries were not saying the same thing as Paul, nor did Paul borrow his ideas from them, especially concerning "dying and rising with Christ" or his "with Christ" language. The lack of clear evidence for significant influence on Jewish or Christian thought of that period makes these sources unlikely.